let's break the previous discussion into a few points (hope i didn't forget anything):

• Java is slow: Not at all. Modern java JVMs uses JIT (just-in-time) bytecode-to-native execution engines. Bytecode is compiled to native code and *cached* for later use. So after a few moments of running a java app on JIT-enabled JVM, you'll be having a _native_ experience. You should know that the JVM itself needs to initialze before your java application. I know that (some poorly written and un-optimized) java apps are memory hogs, but that's a known issue with object-oriented lanuages in general, not to mention you're running on a JVM!!

• Java (SUN's implementation) is not open source: this is a source of a really REALLY long debate, but SUN's java implementation is really open-source friendly and there's no point of not using it. Anyways, i'm currently subscribed to Apache Harmony Development mailing list that aims at an %100 open-source J2SE 5 implementation.

• For a better user experience, the Chat subsection *ISN'T* supposed to immediately load the chat applet (being whatever name) but instead it would have one or more of the following:
  • simple steps (crash-course style) to connect to irc from whatever chat client
  • a pointer to an internal/external tutorial about IRC
  • a link that popup a resized window loading a pre-configured java-based IRC client.

there's an alternative, which mohammed sameer won't like so much or even at all ;), that's server-based IRC client web application but i don't recommend it at all (bandwidth, server load, lags, la la la).

-ahmed

if it's more efficient( just point and click to reach a certain secion, no roundtrips or intermediate pages) and used on all kinds of corporate and community sites, then why "without javascript"??

I'm looking to really expand our use of DHTML (javascript+html+css). From layered tooltips to auto-hide "user tools" panels replacing the top-right links). It's pretty well supported by ALL majore browsers.

-ahmed

IMO we should support all browsers not all major ones.

most corporate and community websites have HTML code that sucks and does not come close to validating, have adverts, flash and all kinds of annoying things I don't see how this is an argument for anything forget most sites and talk about eglug period.

IMO DHTML should be avoided until it is needed for something that can't be done otherwise (aka googlemaps and this kind of stuff that requires interactivity).

navigating a website does not require that much interactivity, it is an easy concept/paradigm that works.

you click on something you load another page, thats how the web works.

dunno what are layered tooltips, basic tooltips can be done without javascript.

it is already a pain to maintain a design that works on all browsers, maintaining javascript that works is another headache that I'd prefer to avoid.

cheers,
Alaa

http://www.manalaa.net "i`m feeling for the 2nd time like alice in wonderland reading el wafd"

All the menu stuff is done quite differently in 4.7

I'm just saying that if you put a lot of effort into a fancy menu system it may be a pain to upgrade to 4.7

What do you think ?

- I'm a code junkie security enthusiast

- http://pronco.manalaa.net

on the contrary, what is being proposed is to use the system used in drupal 4.7

there is a hack to use a menu.module menu in place of the primary links menu, I use it in manalaa.net

in drupal 4.7 this is integrated inside the system and has proper administration interface, so the upgrade path will actually be very smooth, in 4.6 you put inline php code in your theme to include a specific menu, after an upgrade you remove that code, put the standard code for including primary links, then visit the primary links admin page and point at the correct menu, tadah.

cheers,
Alaa

http://www.manalaa.net "context is over-rated. who are you anyway?"

Yeah, good to go then

- I'm a code junkie security enthusiast

- http://pronco.manalaa.net

What's the status on this? I have an idea of merging the side bar and the primary links, and fit things under this "non-linear" hiearchy.

We can have the icons in the top menu, I believe MSameer has a hack to do this.

Javascript or DHTML or drupal 4.7 , whichever way we do it can we please decide? Navigation right now is at least annoying.

-1 for Javascript or DHTML unless implemented in a clean way that will work even if the browser doesn't support javascript.

I repeat the smart thing to do is to use drupal menu.module there is a very well documented hack to do that in drupal 4.6 (I use it in manalaa.net), this hack was so popular it became part of 4.7, which means upgrading when 4.7 is released will be smooth.

go ahead, read the doc and implement the hack, replace primary links with a proper multilevel menu that has a useable administration interface (administer->menus), themeing it with icons can come later.

cheers,
Alaa

http://www.manalaa.net "context is over-rated. who are you anyway?"

OK will read that and see if I can push it in.